search

Author Topic: Stone Brewing  (Read 17335 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline emerge

  • VIP Member
  • Trade Count: (4)
  • American Sour Ale
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,038
  • Location: Chibeeria
    • Research page @ Lambic.info
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #250 on: March 08, 2022, 01:48:53 PM »
The Stone v Keystone trial started today.  Not sure which side I'm on but it's an interesting debate.

https://www.courthousenews.com/trial-begins-in-trademark-spat-between-stone-brewing-and-millercoors/

Stone is arguing that the keySTONE confusion is why their sales are down 20%/$174M in recent years.

MillerCoors says nobody could be confused because only unemployed people buy Keystone. (seriously)

https://twitter.com/B_Palfreyman/status/1501212680329351177


Gotta say i'm on Stone's side, the branding is copyright infringement. And you know MillerCoors would sue and other brewery in a heartbeat for the same thing, intentional or not. Whether or not their target market is different is irrelevant, both are in the same product category sold by the same retailers.

Offline Murphadam

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Quadrupel
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,501
  • Location: Palatine, IL
  • You're Awesome
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #251 on: March 08, 2022, 02:01:47 PM »
The Stone v Keystone trial started today.  Not sure which side I'm on but it's an interesting debate.

https://www.courthousenews.com/trial-begins-in-trademark-spat-between-stone-brewing-and-millercoors/

Stone is arguing that the keySTONE confusion is why their sales are down 20%/$174M in recent years.

MillerCoors says nobody could be confused because only unemployed people buy Keystone. (seriously)

https://twitter.com/B_Palfreyman/status/1501212680329351177


Gotta say i'm on Stone's side, the branding is copyright infringement. And you know MillerCoors would sue and other brewery in a heartbeat for the same thing, intentional or not. Whether or not their target market is different is irrelevant, both are in the same product category sold by the same retailers.

Sort of - but every can says KEY STONE LIGHT.  And I have to think it will be hard for Stone to prove damages.  Also there's that pesky fact that Keystone has been using the 'STONE branding since before Stone Brewing existed.


Offline emerge

  • VIP Member
  • Trade Count: (4)
  • American Sour Ale
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,038
  • Location: Chibeeria
    • Research page @ Lambic.info
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #252 on: March 08, 2022, 02:40:20 PM »
The Stone v Keystone trial started today.  Not sure which side I'm on but it's an interesting debate.

https://www.courthousenews.com/trial-begins-in-trademark-spat-between-stone-brewing-and-millercoors/

Stone is arguing that the keySTONE confusion is why their sales are down 20%/$174M in recent years.

MillerCoors says nobody could be confused because only unemployed people buy Keystone. (seriously)

https://twitter.com/B_Palfreyman/status/1501212680329351177


Gotta say i'm on Stone's side, the branding is copyright infringement. And you know MillerCoors would sue and other brewery in a heartbeat for the same thing, intentional or not. Whether or not their target market is different is irrelevant, both are in the same product category sold by the same retailers.

Sort of - but every can says KEY STONE LIGHT.  And I have to think it will be hard for Stone to prove damages.  Also there's that pesky fact that Keystone has been using the 'STONE branding since before Stone Brewing existed.



Can't say i've ever seen that branding until now, it may set legal precedent if they bothered to copyright that ad slogan they used back in '96. I've only seen this recent pic of the cans:



Yes it says "Key" in smaller letters, but when the cans are facing you just see stone, as above.
It's too ambiguous to say that pic says "Keystone" when cans are turned that way. The issue is brand confusion when they are on the same shelves at the same retailer, which is trademark infringement. I also thought the Keystone brand was one word, not two.

Offline Murphadam

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Quadrupel
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,501
  • Location: Palatine, IL
  • You're Awesome
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #253 on: March 08, 2022, 03:10:50 PM »
That can actually has "KEY" in the same font size, Greg is just covering it up.  Stone is going to have to prove that MillerCoors deliberately used a mark they've used for decades to get people to think they were buying Stone beer, _and_ that this confusion has alone cost Stone hundreds millions of dollars, in a time where many big regional breweries have seen similar downturns.  Seems like a real heavy lift.

« Last Edit: March 08, 2022, 03:13:11 PM by Murphadam »

Offline emerge

  • VIP Member
  • Trade Count: (4)
  • American Sour Ale
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,038
  • Location: Chibeeria
    • Research page @ Lambic.info
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #254 on: March 08, 2022, 04:52:04 PM »
That can actually has "KEY" in the same font size, Greg is just covering it up.  Stone is going to have to prove that MillerCoors deliberately used a mark they've used for decades to get people to think they were buying Stone beer, _and_ that this confusion has alone cost Stone hundreds millions of dollars, in a time where many big regional breweries have seen similar downturns.  Seems like a real heavy lift.



Yeah, I don't think they can prove this cost them millions in revenue, but I can see them ruling in favor due to the brand confusion aspect.

It doesn't seem even somewhat intentional? To me it seems like something they ran by their lawyers first to see what they could get away with. Wouldn't be the first time.

No one is thinking this is Stone IPA, but surely it's designed to be confusing at the very least:
« Last Edit: March 08, 2022, 05:02:08 PM by emerge »

Offline howardf

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Russian Imperial Stout
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,103
  • Location: Avon, IN
  • If I've offended you, it made me happy.
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #255 on: March 09, 2022, 08:17:55 AM »
I would think the old ad would be enough "prior art" to get the suit tossed.

Offline Murphadam

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Quadrupel
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,501
  • Location: Palatine, IL
  • You're Awesome
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #256 on: March 09, 2022, 10:37:03 AM »
I would think the old ad would be enough "prior art" to get the suit tossed.

It's interesting that it hasn't been thrown out or settled in the last three years and is at trial starting this week.  Tells me there's some merit on both sides, though Stone may kind of be "All in" at this point and also needs the trial from a marketing standpoint.

Offline emerge

  • VIP Member
  • Trade Count: (4)
  • American Sour Ale
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,038
  • Location: Chibeeria
    • Research page @ Lambic.info
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #257 on: March 09, 2022, 11:29:25 AM »
I would think the old ad would be enough "prior art" to get the suit tossed.

It's interesting that it hasn't been thrown out or settled in the last three years and is at trial starting this week.  Tells me there's some merit on both sides, though Stone may kind of be "All in" at this point and also needs the trial from a marketing standpoint.

I agree, can't think of a better marketing opportunity. Definitely fits Stone's David vs. Goliath philosophy too. However, If they're hemorrhaging money, seems like bad timing to sink tons of legal fees into this.

Personally I haven't watched any of his blogs/videos, as I don't have the patience/interest. Wonder if he will eventually crucify himself at some point. :mellow:

I'd still buy IRS or SSR if I could find them though. :banned:

Offline Murphadam

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Quadrupel
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,501
  • Location: Palatine, IL
  • You're Awesome
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #258 on: March 09, 2022, 02:23:12 PM »
Maybe, but it's pretty hard to be a "David" when you're a 100M+ company bullying any tiny brewery that uses the word "stone" or "bastard" in any form.  Even spanish "piedra!"

https://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pnam=Stone+Brewing+Co.%2C+LLC++

STONERFOODS
STONEY RIVER STEAKHOUSE AND GRILL
STONEWALL CANYON
PREPPY BASTARD
LOCO DE PIEDRA

All these marks get challenged by Stone.  I thought all MillerCoors had to do was "Put the Key back in Keystone"


« Last Edit: March 09, 2022, 02:29:13 PM by Murphadam »

Offline fRed Scare

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Russian Imperial Stout
  • *****
  • Posts: 28,130
  • Location: Warshingtimore
  • Fnord
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #259 on: March 09, 2022, 02:52:20 PM »
Stone is arguing that the keySTONE confusion is why their sales are down 20%/$174M in recent years.

About 100 other breweries would like this argument to be true.
Quote from: J-Rod
I ended up drinking 9 times my body weight in beer, broke three glasses over my head, 7 over others, ordered up 17 hookers for a little afterparty, held a cabbie hostage while running his cab through the Madison capitol doors, and I grabbed gator's ass.

Offline emerge

  • VIP Member
  • Trade Count: (4)
  • American Sour Ale
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,038
  • Location: Chibeeria
    • Research page @ Lambic.info
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #260 on: March 09, 2022, 02:55:19 PM »
Maybe, but it's pretty hard to be a "David" when you're a 100M+ company bullying any tiny brewery that uses the word "stone" or "bastard" in any form.  Even spanish "piedra!"

https://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pnam=Stone+Brewing+Co.%2C+LLC++

STONERFOODS
STONEY RIVER STEAKHOUSE AND GRILL
STONEWALL CANYON
PREPPY BASTARD
LOCO DE PIEDRA

All these marks get challenged by Stone.  I thought all MillerCoors had to do was "Put the Key back in Keystone"

Didn't know that, seems like overkill and pretty hypocritical. None of those sound like alcoholic beverages, but there are a few looking at the full list. How does he have time to brew with all these lawsuits? :blink:

Just saying that it fits his MO to play the underdog, now I care less about the whole thing. Never had a dog in the fight anyway, all I care about here is the trademark infringement. If there wasn't a case they'd throw it out.

Offline Westside Threat

  • VIP and TBS Founding Member
  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Barleywine
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,848
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Carpe Cervisiam
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #261 on: March 09, 2022, 03:22:22 PM »
Copyright aside, lmao @ Stone trying to blame Keystone for their 20% sales decline.  Welcome to the new beer world
Should we take a cab home, Jesus?
Shit man, we can hoof it from here.
I know you can walk on water...
But can you walk on this much beer?

Offline BryanC

  • VIP Member
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Old Ale
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,475
  • Location: Richmond, VA
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #262 on: March 09, 2022, 09:38:23 PM »
However, If they're hemorrhaging money, seems like bad timing to sink tons of legal fees into this.

I doubt they’re hemorrhaging money.  They just (like last week) put some new fermenters in the RVA location.

I'd still buy IRS or SSR if I could find them though. :banned:

SSR is still on the shelves here, and IRS is coming back later this year.

Offline emerge

  • VIP Member
  • Trade Count: (4)
  • American Sour Ale
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,038
  • Location: Chibeeria
    • Research page @ Lambic.info
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #263 on: March 09, 2022, 09:46:57 PM »
However, If they're hemorrhaging money, seems like bad timing to sink tons of legal fees into this.

I doubt they’re hemorrhaging money.  They just (like last week) put some new fermenters in the RVA location.

I'd still buy IRS or SSR if I could find them though. :banned: :bag:

SSR is still on the shelves here, and IRS is coming back later this year.

Losing money, sales down 20%, not hemorrhaging.

I guess they don’t litigate all the trademark defense stuff either or even send c&d’s. Apparently there was some new brewery in KY that went ballistic on them bc they didn’t pay for a trademark search before going with Sawstone Brewing Co. Yes I wasted 15 minutes reading Greg Koch’s blog today.

Offline beastiefan2k

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Double IPA
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,061
  • Location: Bmore
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #264 on: March 09, 2022, 11:29:08 PM »
anecdotal but when I first saw this can, in a craft beer bar fridge, I mistook it for Stone Brewing.  Turned the can slightly in the cooler to check the city, and saw Miller.  Thought that Stone really sold out and was contract brewing BIG TIME. Went to ask the bartender his thoughts and he clarified that it was Keystone. Felt like I had egg on my face but the way the can was positioned, it was very very hard to tell that it was Keystone.

Offline BryanC

  • VIP Member
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Old Ale
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,475
  • Location: Richmond, VA

Offline beastiefan2k

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Double IPA
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,061
  • Location: Bmore
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #266 on: March 12, 2022, 12:23:22 PM »
https://richmondbizsense.com/2022/03/10/four-more-1000-barrel-tanks-added-to-stone-brewings-facility-in-fulton/
Good for them. Not that I am asking for them but Stone isn't in MD. So, they can easily expand distro on the East coast.

Offline fRed Scare

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Russian Imperial Stout
  • *****
  • Posts: 28,130
  • Location: Warshingtimore
  • Fnord
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #267 on: March 12, 2022, 01:56:30 PM »
https://richmondbizsense.com/2022/03/10/four-more-1000-barrel-tanks-added-to-stone-brewings-facility-in-fulton/
Good for them. Not that I am asking for them but Stone isn't in MD. So, they can easily expand distro on the East coast.

They aren't?  I'm certain I've bought them here.
Quote from: J-Rod
I ended up drinking 9 times my body weight in beer, broke three glasses over my head, 7 over others, ordered up 17 hookers for a little afterparty, held a cabbie hostage while running his cab through the Madison capitol doors, and I grabbed gator's ass.

Offline beastiefan2k

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Double IPA
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,061
  • Location: Bmore
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #268 on: March 12, 2022, 07:28:08 PM »
https://richmondbizsense.com/2022/03/10/four-more-1000-barrel-tanks-added-to-stone-brewings-facility-in-fulton/
Good for them. Not that I am asking for them but Stone isn't in MD. So, they can easily expand distro on the East coast.

They aren't?  I'm certain I've bought them here.
I don’t recall ever seeing Stone in Bmore City or Harford County since moving here. Maybe before that?

Offline emerge

  • VIP Member
  • Trade Count: (4)
  • American Sour Ale
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,038
  • Location: Chibeeria
    • Research page @ Lambic.info
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #269 on: March 16, 2022, 02:57:28 PM »


:coffee:

Offline thickfreakness

  • VIP Member
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Russian Imperial Stout
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,105
  • Location: THE GREATEST STATE IN THE UNION
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #270 on: March 16, 2022, 05:46:37 PM »
Keystone Light was our cheap beer of choice in college. I definitely recall being a bit confused when I first saw their new Stone branding, even though I knew exactly what it was.

Offline Murphadam

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Quadrupel
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,501
  • Location: Palatine, IL
  • You're Awesome
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #271 on: March 17, 2022, 11:06:07 AM »
https://www.brewbound.com/news/brewbound-podcast-stone-and-molson-coors-go-to-trial

Podcast about the "Super Bowl" of craft beer lawsuits.  starts 18:00.

Offline Murphadam

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Quadrupel
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,501
  • Location: Palatine, IL
  • You're Awesome
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #272 on: March 24, 2022, 12:18:32 PM »

Offline JJ

  • VIP Member
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Russian Imperial Stout
  • *****
  • Posts: 21,838
  • Location:
  • Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #273 on: March 24, 2022, 12:39:30 PM »
I haven't been following this. Can somebody sum up in 50 words?
The Force is what gives a brewer his power. It's an energy field created by yeast. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It converts polysaccharides to ethyl alcohol.

Offline howardf

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Russian Imperial Stout
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,103
  • Location: Avon, IN
  • If I've offended you, it made me happy.
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #274 on: March 24, 2022, 12:42:38 PM »
I haven't been following this. Can somebody sum up in 50 words?

Keystone branding is now "key  STONE", which Stone is alleging destroyed their brand, and want 100s of millions in damages.

Did it in 20 :coffee:

Offline beastiefan2k

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Double IPA
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,061
  • Location: Bmore
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #275 on: March 24, 2022, 01:25:28 PM »
I haven't been following this. Can somebody sum up in 50 words?
A few years ago, Keystone started making cans of beer where the key was hidden while STONE was prominently displayed. Stone Brewing sued & it is just finally going to court.

Stone is looking for a # for damages and it is using the current crunch in the craft beer market to its advantage in that #.

Offline JJ

  • VIP Member
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Russian Imperial Stout
  • *****
  • Posts: 21,838
  • Location:
  • Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #276 on: March 24, 2022, 01:36:15 PM »
I haven't been following this. Can somebody sum up in 50 words?

Keystone branding is now "key  STONE", which Stone is alleging destroyed their brand, and want 100s of millions in damages.

Did it in 20 :coffee:
I owe you 30 in change.

Interesting. Go Stone :thumbup:
The Force is what gives a brewer his power. It's an energy field created by yeast. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It converts polysaccharides to ethyl alcohol.

Offline fRed Scare

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Russian Imperial Stout
  • *****
  • Posts: 28,130
  • Location: Warshingtimore
  • Fnord
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #277 on: March 25, 2022, 04:30:56 PM »
Prediction: Stone wins and is awarded a case of Keystone plus lawyer fees
Quote from: J-Rod
I ended up drinking 9 times my body weight in beer, broke three glasses over my head, 7 over others, ordered up 17 hookers for a little afterparty, held a cabbie hostage while running his cab through the Madison capitol doors, and I grabbed gator's ass.

Offline Murphadam

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Quadrupel
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,501
  • Location: Palatine, IL
  • You're Awesome
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #278 on: March 25, 2022, 06:36:53 PM »
Prediction: Stone wins and is awarded a case of Keystone plus lawyer fees

$56 Million will buy a lot of 'stones!

https://twitter.com/B_Palfreyman/status/1507476452421378052

Offline wisconsinbeer1

  • VIP Member
  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Double IPA
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,465
  • Location: Nunya, Bizniss
  • 40 oz. to Freedom
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #279 on: March 25, 2022, 07:40:49 PM »
Prediction: Stone wins and is awarded a case of Keystone plus lawyer fees

$56 Million will buy a lot of 'stones!

https://twitter.com/B_Palfreyman/status/1507476452421378052

 :o
“Great ballplayers drink Lite beer because it’s less filling. I know. I asked one.” -Bob Uecker

Offline beastiefan2k

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Double IPA
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,061
  • Location: Bmore
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #280 on: March 26, 2022, 04:28:47 PM »
Prediction: Stone wins and is awarded a case of Keystone plus lawyer fees

$56 Million will buy a lot of 'stones!

https://twitter.com/B_Palfreyman/status/1507476452421378052

 :o
That is awesome and surprisingly quick. I’m sure that Miller will try to appeal. I have no idea how much the lawyer fees will total but hopefully this will help Stone weather the tough times. Importantly, this is a big win for protecting their branding.

Offline BryanC

  • VIP Member
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Old Ale
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,475
  • Location: Richmond, VA
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #281 on: March 29, 2022, 10:26:17 AM »

Offline beastiefan2k

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Double IPA
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,061
  • Location: Bmore
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #282 on: March 30, 2022, 05:21:36 PM »
Stone seems to be worse off than I thought.

https://www.goodbeerhunting.com/sightlines/2022/3/28/stone-wins-lawsuit-but-jury-is-still-out-on-companys-financial-future
I bet they overstated the problems (at least a bit) for the court). It seems like their debtor is flexible, which is nice. I would hate to see them sell. It seems they are a bit rutterless, Stone was know for the Arrogant Bastard idea but they have really moved away from that.  I know it is due to changing tastes but they changed themselves to something unoriginal.  If you change, at least go in a direction that isn't like everyone else.

Offline Murphadam

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Quadrupel
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,501
  • Location: Palatine, IL
  • You're Awesome
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #283 on: April 08, 2022, 09:19:10 AM »

Offline emerge

  • VIP Member
  • Trade Count: (4)
  • American Sour Ale
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,038
  • Location: Chibeeria
    • Research page @ Lambic.info
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #284 on: April 08, 2022, 09:29:50 AM »
Hahahahaha :coffee:

Stone, glass houses, something something

Offline beastiefan2k

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Double IPA
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,061
  • Location: Bmore
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #285 on: April 08, 2022, 11:18:52 PM »
I'd also add that its not a phrase worth copying.

Offline Murphadam

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Quadrupel
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,501
  • Location: Palatine, IL
  • You're Awesome
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #286 on: April 09, 2022, 10:31:55 AM »
I'd also add that its not a phrase worth copying.

Did anyone get Doja Cat to weigh in?  2019, vs Sycamore's mark from 2020

« Last Edit: April 09, 2022, 10:45:48 AM by Murphadam »

Offline beastiefan2k

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Double IPA
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,061
  • Location: Bmore
Re: Stone Brewing
« Reply #287 on: April 28, 2022, 02:16:45 PM »
Seems like Stone is asking for more damages and lawyer fees. Molson/Coors is appealing.  This may still turn out very differently. Hoping more money for Stone.