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Offline Uncle Randy

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Cellaring in general
« on: June 28, 2007, 07:43:29 PM »
So, my favorite beer evah is Thomas Hardy's.  Always has been, most likely always will be.

My question - it's obviously not corked, so I don't lay 'em down.  I've got a couple 1993's that I've been saving, along with numerous years in between then and now.  Should I be worried about them going bad?

Offline Kegergator

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2007, 10:06:36 PM »
I prolly wouldn't lay them as it might affect the cap and thus the flavor. The brew it self should be fine.
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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2007, 11:15:08 PM »
I've read relatively recent reviews of 1970s and 1980s bottles that were very well received.  As long as the bottled were cared for, they should be just fine.

Hell, I'm trying to acquire a 1974 in time for my birthday next year (and a Courage RIS 1974, too).  My plan is to crack them and drink them.
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Offline Uncle Randy

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2007, 03:10:31 PM »
I've read relatively recent reviews of 1970s and 1980s bottles that were very well received.  As long as the bottled were cared for, they should be just fine.

Hell, I'm trying to acquire a 1974 in time for my birthday next year (and a Courage RIS 1974, too).  My plan is to crack them and drink them.

If you find more than one '74, I'll take one too - that's my birthyear as well. :banned:

Offline Fro

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2007, 04:22:01 PM »
I drank an '82 last christmas.  It was liquid gold
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Offline mrhops

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2009, 01:46:58 PM »
How do you know if certain beers can be put in the cellar and drank at a later date?
For example, I have a Dogfish Red & White that was brewed in 2006. The brewer at DFH said this beer can cellar for many many years.
However, I have a Winter Warmer (not from DFH) that was brewed in 2008 which I would like to cellar. Do these beers have shelf-life, etc?
Sorry for the newb questions.......I am new to cellaring but very familiar with craft brews.


Offline flyingbison

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2009, 01:50:37 PM »
How do you know if certain beers can be put in the cellar and drank at a later date?
For example, I have a Dogfish Red & White that was brewed in 2006. The brewer at DFH said this beer can cellar for many many years.
However, I have a Winter Warmer (not from DFH) that was brewed in 2008 which I would like to cellar. Do these beers have shelf-life, etc?
Sorry for the newb questions.......I am new to cellaring but very familiar with craft brews.



As a general rule, higher ABV beers will cellar better than low-moderate ABV ones. Cellaring will change the flavor profile of the beer - sometimes for better, sometimes for worse.  The only way to know for sure it to experiment.

Also, I would avoid cellaring beers you haven't tasted fresh, since you won't have any way of knowing how it has changed.

Offline Kegergator

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2009, 01:53:43 PM »
How do you know if certain beers can be put in the cellar and drank at a later date?
For example, I have a Dogfish Red & White that was brewed in 2006. The brewer at DFH said this beer can cellar for many many years.
However, I have a Winter Warmer (not from DFH) that was brewed in 2008 which I would like to cellar. Do these beers have shelf-life, etc?
Sorry for the newb questions.......I am new to cellaring but very familiar with craft brews.


I think a good gauge is the ABV along with style. Higher ABV tend to do better. Also, if you think a brew would be better with a little more mellow flavor, give it shot in the cellar for a while. Everyone likes different things, so try experimenting to see what you dig.



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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2009, 01:55:15 PM »
Lambics age beautifully, but are low in abv.  It's one of those styles that breaks what many would call their cellaring "guidelines".

Offline flyingbison

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2009, 01:57:49 PM »
Lambics age beautifully, but are low in abv.  It's one of those styles that breaks what many would call their cellaring "guidelines".

Yep.  And DIPAs are the exception at the other end of the spectrum ... higher ABV, but the hops really fade with age.  Don't cellar IPA/DIPAs unless you really just want to experiment with one ... or unless you want to be like Furley.

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2009, 02:59:19 PM »
Too bad Thomas Hardy's Ale is no longer being made.
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Offline Phish

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2009, 02:19:05 PM »
Too bad Thomas Hardy's Ale is no longer being made.
I've been picking up bottles randomly whenever I see them.

Offline KingG

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2009, 05:25:15 PM »
I have an un-opened case of 05 sitting in the back of the store at cellar temp.

It'll be a long time before i open it.
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Offline Mar

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2009, 03:17:26 PM »
I need a Hardy's from 1980 and 2008 then, I'll need the same from JW Lees.   Back to your regular scheduled posting.
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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2009, 04:34:39 PM »
I need a Hardy's from 1980 and 2008 then, I'll need the same from JW Lees.   Back to your regular scheduled posting.

ebay down?
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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2009, 08:30:07 PM »
What ever happened to Uncle Randy (OP)?

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2009, 08:40:48 AM »
I need a Hardy's from 1980 and 2008 then, I'll need the same from JW Lees.   Back to your regular scheduled posting.

ebay down?

haven't really looked there actually.
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Offline mr. furley

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2009, 12:08:51 PM »
What ever happened to Uncle Randy (OP)?

:unsure:  he joins the list along with stonecrusher of people i scared off the internet :unsure:
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Offline flyingbison

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2009, 12:33:44 PM »
This thread just reminded me ... I'm going to have to build a beer room in the new house. 

Since I'll be starting from scratch, any recommendations? 

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2009, 12:45:37 PM »
This thread just reminded me ... I'm going to have to build a beer room in the new house. 

Since I'll be starting from scratch, any recommendations? 

Start digging...

Offline flyingbison

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2009, 12:50:18 PM »
This thread just reminded me ... I'm going to have to build a beer room in the new house. 

Since I'll be starting from scratch, any recommendations? 

Start digging...

 <_<  Let me rephrase that ... I need to build a beer room in the basement.

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2009, 12:55:58 PM »
This thread just reminded me ... I'm going to have to build a beer room in the new house. 

Since I'll be starting from scratch, any recommendations? 

Start digging...

 <_<  Let me rephrase that ... I need to build a beer room in the basement.
Minimal amount of light, sturdy shelving, cool temps and a lot of patience not to pop certain things.  :thumbup:
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Offline NFLMVP

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2009, 01:05:03 PM »
This thread just reminded me ... I'm going to have to build a beer room in the new house. 

Since I'll be starting from scratch, any recommendations? 

Start digging...

 <_<  Let me rephrase that ... I need to build a beer room in the basement.
Minimal amount of light, sturdy shelving, cool temps and a lot of patience not to pop certain things.  :thumbup:

Depending on your basement, you might also want to consider a dehumidifier.
Take good care of your beer and your beer will take good care of you.

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2009, 02:28:11 PM »
How big should I make it?
My current beer room has a concrete block wall, but I'm assuming 2x4 & drywall will be sufficient, right? 
Should I insulate that wall from the rest of the basement, or is that overkill?

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2009, 02:31:14 PM »
How big should I make it?
My current beer room has a concrete block wall, but I'm assuming 2x4 & drywall will be sufficient, right? 
Should I insulate that wall from the rest of the basement, or is that overkill?

I've been working on a floor plan for my basement remodel that includes a "cold storage" room.  I'm planning on insulating it from the rest of the basement since I'll eventually be heating down there.  In addition to the only six inch walls in the basement, I'll be putting an insulated door.
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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2009, 02:40:19 PM »
There was an article in an old issue of Brew Your Own I believe that showed how to make your own cellar.  The guy even went as far as to add a window air conditioner or something to keep it at a set temp.
"I would kill everyone in this room for a drop of sweet beer." -Homer Simpson        "What's drinking? A mere pause from thinking." -Lord Byron

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Offline flyingbison

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2009, 02:49:57 PM »
How big should I make it?
My current beer room has a concrete block wall, but I'm assuming 2x4 & drywall will be sufficient, right? 
Should I insulate that wall from the rest of the basement, or is that overkill?

I've been working on a floor plan for my basement remodel that includes a "cold storage" room.  I'm planning on insulating it from the rest of the basement since I'll eventually be heating down there.  In addition to the only six inch walls in the basement, I'll be putting an insulated door.

I probably won't go that far.  I'll keep an extra fridge for cold storgae, but the beer room will have to settle for being cool and dark.

Offline NFLMVP

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2009, 03:54:42 PM »
How big should I make it?
My current beer room has a concrete block wall, but I'm assuming 2x4 & drywall will be sufficient, right? 
Should I insulate that wall from the rest of the basement, or is that overkill?

I've been working on a floor plan for my basement remodel that includes a "cold storage" room.  I'm planning on insulating it from the rest of the basement since I'll eventually be heating down there.  In addition to the only six inch walls in the basement, I'll be putting an insulated door.

I probably won't go that far.  I'll keep an extra fridge for cold storgae, but the beer room will have to settle for being cool and dark.

I don't think that an exterior door is going to cost much more than an interior door.  You don't necessarily need 6 inch walls but again, for the amount of lumber you need, I doubt it'll add much expense.  You do plan on insulating, right?  Don't put the fridge in the cellar room because the motor will heat the room up.
Take good care of your beer and your beer will take good care of you.

Offline flyingbison

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2009, 04:05:35 PM »
How big should I make it?
My current beer room has a concrete block wall, but I'm assuming 2x4 & drywall will be sufficient, right? 
Should I insulate that wall from the rest of the basement, or is that overkill?

I've been working on a floor plan for my basement remodel that includes a "cold storage" room.  I'm planning on insulating it from the rest of the basement since I'll eventually be heating down there.  In addition to the only six inch walls in the basement, I'll be putting an insulated door.

I probably won't go that far.  I'll keep an extra fridge for cold storgae, but the beer room will have to settle for being cool and dark.

I don't think that an exterior door is going to cost much more than an interior door.  You don't necessarily need 6 inch walls but again, for the amount of lumber you need, I doubt it'll add much expense.  You do plan on insulating, right?  Don't put the fridge in the cellar room because the motor will heat the room up.

Not sure if I need to insulate or not ... I'll have to see what the basement temp is like when we move in ... it certainly can't hurt, and won't cost much.

As for the door, I'll probably try to pick up something used/salvaged.  I can always attach some foam insulation to the inside if I need it.

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2009, 08:39:30 PM »
How big should I make it?
My current beer room has a concrete block wall, but I'm assuming 2x4 & drywall will be sufficient, right? 
Should I insulate that wall from the rest of the basement, or is that overkill?

I've been working on a floor plan for my basement remodel that includes a "cold storage" room.  I'm planning on insulating it from the rest of the basement since I'll eventually be heating down there.  In addition to the only six inch walls in the basement, I'll be putting an insulated door.

I probably won't go that far.  I'll keep an extra fridge for cold storgae, but the beer room will have to settle for being cool and dark.

I don't think that an exterior door is going to cost much more than an interior door.  You don't necessarily need 6 inch walls but again, for the amount of lumber you need, I doubt it'll add much expense.  You do plan on insulating, right?  Don't put the fridge in the cellar room because the motor will heat the room up.

Not sure if I need to insulate or not ... I'll have to see what the basement temp is like when we move in ... it certainly can't hurt, and won't cost much.

As for the door, I'll probably try to pick up something used/salvaged.  I can always attach some foam insulation to the inside if I need it.

Check Menards.  They have a clearance rack of damaged, special order returns and discontinued doors.  You can probably find a pretty good deal there.  I got my front door with sidelight for $200 which was more than 75% off.  It was painted blue so I just had to paint it white.

Unless you have a complete lack of insulation, I'd guess that your basement will range between about 53 at the lowest, during the winter and 67 at the highest, during the summer.  Insulating the cellar from the rest of the basement should help you avoid those upper 60's in the summer.  I don't think they will mean lower temps during the winter.

Insulating and using an insulated door now will set you up for easy future improvements.  I just bring this up since I tend to look towards the greatest potential use, rather than the cheapest construction cost.  If you decide later that you want to put a portable AC unit in the room during the summer, you'll save a bunch of work and get greater benefit out of it. You'll also spend very little because you spent a few extra dollars today. 

I guess what I'm getting at is this.......don't be penny wise and pound foolish.
Take good care of your beer and your beer will take good care of you.

Offline flyingbison

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2009, 08:54:52 PM »
How big should I make it?
My current beer room has a concrete block wall, but I'm assuming 2x4 & drywall will be sufficient, right? 
Should I insulate that wall from the rest of the basement, or is that overkill?

I've been working on a floor plan for my basement remodel that includes a "cold storage" room.  I'm planning on insulating it from the rest of the basement since I'll eventually be heating down there.  In addition to the only six inch walls in the basement, I'll be putting an insulated door.

I probably won't go that far.  I'll keep an extra fridge for cold storgae, but the beer room will have to settle for being cool and dark.

I don't think that an exterior door is going to cost much more than an interior door.  You don't necessarily need 6 inch walls but again, for the amount of lumber you need, I doubt it'll add much expense.  You do plan on insulating, right?  Don't put the fridge in the cellar room because the motor will heat the room up.

Not sure if I need to insulate or not ... I'll have to see what the basement temp is like when we move in ... it certainly can't hurt, and won't cost much.

As for the door, I'll probably try to pick up something used/salvaged.  I can always attach some foam insulation to the inside if I need it.

Check Menards.  They have a clearance rack of damaged, special order returns and discontinued doors.  You can probably find a pretty good deal there.  I got my front door with sidelight for $200 which was more than 75% off.  It was painted blue so I just had to paint it white.


I'll check the Habitat ReStore first ... I might find an even cheaper one there. Pretty sure there is one in Appleton, too.

Offline beagle

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2010, 09:34:08 PM »
Didn't want to start a new thread, figured this would work.


All of you with large cellars, when do you actually man up and drink those sons-o-bitches? I have been killing mine for some time, and now find that I am close (not there yet) to my really hard to find beers. I can't think of that many special occassions that I would drink these on. So now what? Just start polishing them off mid week like any other brew?
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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2010, 09:38:44 PM »
I no longer wait for a special occasion.  If I want it, I drink it.  Every time I invite people over, only one or two come. :shrug:

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2010, 09:39:39 PM »
At some point even the very rare brews are gonna go downhill.  It'd be a shame to have them do that.  Like you said, there aren't that many special occasions so ya kinda have to just to enjoy them like you would any other brew.  Hard time I have is that I'd like to have more then one beer in a night but you can't with many of these.
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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2010, 09:47:10 PM »
I can't think of that many special occassions that I would drink these on. So now what? Just start polishing them off mid week like any other brew?

In your opinion, will they age well any longer, or are they already at their peak/decline? 
If they'll keep, hang on to them until you're ready. 
If they're marginal, fuck it.  Enjoy them while they're still good.
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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2010, 04:50:21 PM »
This thread just reminded me ... I'm going to have to build a beer room in the new house. 

Since I'll be starting from scratch, any recommendations? 

Damn ... almost 6 months now, and I haven't had time to even think about the beer cellar.  All my stuff is still piled up in boxes.   >:(

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2010, 04:56:27 PM »
This thread just reminded me ... I'm going to have to build a beer room in the new house. 

Since I'll be starting from scratch, any recommendations? 

Damn ... almost 6 months now, and I haven't had time to even think about the beer cellar.  All my stuff is still piled up in boxes.   >:(

That sounds about right.
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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2010, 08:29:59 PM »
This thread just reminded me ... I'm going to have to build a beer room in the new house. 

Since I'll be starting from scratch, any recommendations? 

Damn ... almost 6 months now, and I haven't had time to even think about the beer cellar.  All my stuff is still piled up in boxes.   >:(

In my design for the apartment, downstairs, I'm having the concrete guys include a cellar, underneath the new garage slab, in their bids.  I like the idea because it's just some extra concrete, and the excavating is already being done, anyway.  I told them I need this part of the bid broken down so I can decide if I need to make it bigger.  Right now we're only talking about 6X8 but because of the design, it only requires two small walls with spancrete over the top.  If it's cheap enough for the extra square footage, I'll expand it to 8x10 or 10x12.
Take good care of your beer and your beer will take good care of you.

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2010, 08:35:00 PM »
This thread just reminded me ... I'm going to have to build a beer room in the new house. 

Since I'll be starting from scratch, any recommendations? 

Damn ... almost 6 months now, and I haven't had time to even think about the beer cellar.  All my stuff is still piled up in boxes.   >:(

In my design for the apartment, downstairs, I'm having the concrete guys include a cellar, underneath the new garage slab, in their bids.  I like the idea because it's just some extra concrete, and the excavating is already being done, anyway.  I told them I need this part of the bid broken down so I can decide if I need to make it bigger.  Right now we're only talking about 6X8 but because of the design, it only requires two small walls with spancrete over the top.  If it's cheap enough for the extra square footage, I'll expand it to 8x10 or 10x12.

My wife's uncle had this setup under his garage slab, I thought it would be awesome for a cellar/homebrew fermentation space.  It's fully underground and the ceiling, walls, and floor were all concrete, so pretty cool in there at all times.

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2010, 08:41:10 PM »
This thread just reminded me ... I'm going to have to build a beer room in the new house. 

Since I'll be starting from scratch, any recommendations? 

Damn ... almost 6 months now, and I haven't had time to even think about the beer cellar.  All my stuff is still piled up in boxes.   >:(

In my design for the apartment, downstairs, I'm having the concrete guys include a cellar, underneath the new garage slab, in their bids.  I like the idea because it's just some extra concrete, and the excavating is already being done, anyway.  I told them I need this part of the bid broken down so I can decide if I need to make it bigger.  Right now we're only talking about 6X8 but because of the design, it only requires two small walls with spancrete over the top.  If it's cheap enough for the extra square footage, I'll expand it to 8x10 or 10x12.

My wife's uncle had this setup under his garage slab, I thought it would be awesome for a cellar/homebrew fermentation space.  It's fully underground and the ceiling, walls, and floor were all concrete, so pretty cool in there at all times.

That's what I'm shooting for.   :thumbup:

Take good care of your beer and your beer will take good care of you.

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2010, 05:25:47 PM »
How big should I make it?
My current beer room has a concrete block wall, but I'm assuming 2x4 & drywall will be sufficient, right? 
Should I insulate that wall from the rest of the basement, or is that overkill?

CALLING ALL CONSTRUCTION GUYS AND DIYers:

What's the best way to attach the sill plate to the concrete floor?  Drill holes and use anchors/screws?  Lag bolts?  Will construction adhesive be good enough to hold it in place?

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2010, 05:38:03 PM »
How big should I make it?
My current beer room has a concrete block wall, but I'm assuming 2x4 & drywall will be sufficient, right? 
Should I insulate that wall from the rest of the basement, or is that overkill?

CALLING ALL CONSTRUCTION GUYS AND DIYers:

What's the best way to attach the sill plate to the concrete floor?  Drill holes and use anchors/screws?  Lag bolts?  Will construction adhesive be good enough to hold it in place?

They say to drill for bolts here. But since this isn't going to be structural, I would think you can get away with Liquid Nails most likely. Also, if you measure correctly when you build the wall and prop it into place, you shouldn't have any give with the wall. The Liquid Nails plus that should keep it in place.
"Tenny mucho mucho deniro in su trucky trailer?"

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2010, 11:41:10 PM »
It's official....

We're including a 6x8 cold storage room, under the new garage slab, accessible from the basement apartment.   

The city has approved the design!  :pickle:
Take good care of your beer and your beer will take good care of you.

Offline Severstad

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2010, 04:23:01 PM »
It's official....

We're including a 6x8 cold storage room, under the new garage slab, accessible from the basement apartment.   

The city has approved the design!  :pickle:

That sounds awesome.

If you only had some beer to put in it ...

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2010, 04:41:24 PM »
It's official....

We're including a 6x8 cold storage room, under the new garage slab, accessible from the basement apartment.   

The city has approved the design!  :pickle:

Awesome news.  I'll have to plan a time to make it out where and this time I'll make sure I'm not hung over.
"I would kill everyone in this room for a drop of sweet beer." -Homer Simpson        "What's drinking? A mere pause from thinking." -Lord Byron

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2010, 10:01:36 PM »
Opened up my temp controlled fridge cellar today to find the beer I grabbed feeling warm to the touch.  Looked at the thermometer and it was sitting just above 75 fuckin degrees. :thumbdown:  Apparently its dead, thank god I moved to a place with a basement so I just moved them down there.  I wonder how long it has been dead though.
Gilly> this is totally murdering my unicorn blood boner

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #46 on: August 03, 2010, 02:22:05 AM »
Opened up my temp controlled fridge cellar today to find the beer I grabbed feeling warm to the touch.  Looked at the thermometer and it was sitting just above 75 ####in degrees. :thumbdown:  Apparently its dead, thank god I moved to a place with a basement so I just moved them down there.  I wonder how long it has been dead though.

You're screwed


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Offline James Kitchens

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2010, 08:05:57 AM »
Opened up my temp controlled fridge cellar today to find the beer I grabbed feeling warm to the touch.  Looked at the thermometer and it was sitting just above 75 ####in degrees. :thumbdown:  Apparently its dead, thank god I moved to a place with a basement so I just moved them down there.  I wonder how long it has been dead though.

You're screwed

Yeah, but we're talking about the beer.....
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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2010, 10:13:20 AM »
Opened up my temp controlled fridge cellar today to find the beer I grabbed feeling warm to the touch.  Looked at the thermometer and it was sitting just above 75 ####in degrees. :thumbdown:  Apparently its dead, thank god I moved to a place with a basement so I just moved them down there.  I wonder how long it has been dead though.

You're screwed

Your mom is screwed.  Oh shit.......

I unplugged the temp controller and plugged the fridge in and it's still working.  I then lowered the temp on the controller down and I heard it click on.  I also think the thermometer I was using is dead because it says that the closet in the basement is over 70 degrees.  :bs:
Gilly> this is totally murdering my unicorn blood boner

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Re: Cellaring in general
« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2010, 10:16:48 AM »
Opened up my temp controlled fridge cellar today to find the beer I grabbed feeling warm to the touch.  Looked at the thermometer and it was sitting just above 75 ####in degrees. :thumbdown:  Apparently its dead, thank god I moved to a place with a basement so I just moved them down there.  I wonder how long it has been dead though.

You're screwed

Your mom is screwed.  Oh shit.......

I unplugged the temp controller and plugged the fridge in and it's still working.  I then lowered the temp on the controller down and I heard it click on.  I also think the thermometer I was using is dead because it says that the closet in the basement is over 70 degrees:bs:

that doesn't seem out of line for the middle of summer.